Dealing with Trump: A Conversation between a Skeptic and an Optimist

Please, please, please sign this petition to dump Trump and bring democracy to the USA: Electoral College Electors: Make Hillary Clinton President on December 19

Nope. That would likely create the next and wildest level of insanity. I think democracy is working beautifully right now.

I don't understand your statement. How is Trump wining the presidency despite losing the popular vote an example of democracy working beautifully? Also, consider the gerrymandering and the voter suppression with Voter ID laws that was enacted in many states since the Supremes eliminated the Voting Rights act.

The electoral college was designed to thwart the will of the voters when the elites disagreed with the voter's choice, having electors change their votes to honor the decision of the majority of voters is being democratic. Electors ignoring the will of the voters to vote under the current rigged electoral college system is undemocratic.

There was a map that showed not just states in red and blue but by every county across the country. It was coast to coast red with a splattering of blue dots - which were the urban areas. So the polarity of the voting can be viewed from people with different lifestyles, priorities, etc ... urban v rural. One is not more "right" than the other.

And the popular vote was close enough to 50-50 to convey that there is no clear majority. Everyone in this country has the same right to speak up - and be respected - for what they value. Clearly there is a lot of animosity being thrown at "the other side" at this time. But what has been silently lurking in the background is now on the table. A great opportunity to start addressing it. We all (not just Trump) have a responsibility to find a way to keep moving through what needs to be worked through without the viciousness.

There are many flaws with the country and our ways of governing. From what I can tell this election left a very bad taste in almost everybody's mouth. And it also got a whole lot of people really engaged in fighting for what they see is important. I say it is entirely possible that this year will be looked back on as a breakthrough year in creating real and lasting change for the whole country, if not the world. I am not saying it will be easy, painless, or pretty.

Nobody knows what is going to happen under DJT for the next 4 years. Maybe the traditional Democratic and Republican parties will be torn down and transformed to something that has a great public favorability. Maybe Trump himself will be the one to lead the way for things happening in this country that have been stuck in partisan gridlock for years. Who knows?? And who knows what him doing and saying whatever he does will bring out new leaders for a new future that works for this country. Who knows??

I for one am already thinking about things I have never before considered - like being arrested for standing up against what I think is wrong. Like mass deportations.

Ok one last thing - Hillary had a very clear scheme to win by masterfully manipulating the electoral college system. If she had done that yet Trump won the popular vote I am sure you would not be upset right now.

Well that's it for tonight. I just say we need to see how this starts to unfold and we will all have time to step up and stand for having things work for everyone.

I re-read your message and have to say this statement is flat-out wrong: "So the polarity of the voting can be viewed from people with different lifestyles, priorities, etc ... urban v rural. One is not more "right" than the other." Those are the words of an appeaser.

Causing harm to innocent people is NEVER OK. It is wise to explore and understand why(ignorance, greed, fear, anger) the wrong side is wrong, but that doesn't mean that there is anything good or acceptable about being an oppressor.

Any worldview that discriminates and oppresses people for "who they are" (lifestyle, race, religion, nationality etc. ) instead of "what they do" (ie. when they do harmful and/or criminal acts) is wrong. Trump clearly wants to discriminate against people for who they are. He wants to punish families for the acts of a relative. He wants to increase the use of torture. His disregard for a free press and encouragement of mob violence is also completely unacceptable.

Also keep in mind history and human tendencies. People find beatings, theft and murder fun. Once the boundaries of decency unravel and mobs are let loose no one is safe. A good example is the Nazis sent to do mass killings of Jews in Eastern Europe. The locals, esp. the police were usually happy to join in on the fun. Watch "Einsatzgruppen, the Nazi Death Squads" on Netflix On-demand to see how much fun the side "not more 'right' than the other" had killing, torturing and getting nice little prizes (jewelry, gold teeth, clothing) for their efforts. This happened before they had gas chambers. They enjoyed it so much they would often shoot a few non-Jewish villagers also, just for the hell of it.

So yes, one side is right and the other is wrong. We can see what happens when the wrong side wins in the Philippines, Turkey, Russia and many other places. The opposition, news media and elements of the government designed to protect rights and prevent excesses by leaders (ie. the courts) get shut down. People get oppressed, imprisoned, tortured, and killed. Nothing "just as right" about it.

Running a political campaign that takes into consideration the realities of gerrymandering, voter suppression efforts and un-democratic schemes like the Electoral College is a necessity for winning. It does not mean that one supports those conditions. I can't predict if I would overcome a tendency to be a hypocrite, but I have been a long time advocate for genuine democracy rather than schemes like the electoral college. Never supported it. I never support rigging the system with gerrymandering etc. for the benefit of any particular party, even when it is "my" side doing it. Always supported fairness, open government, equality and inclusiveness. The Electoral College does not contribute to those causes, it is part of the problem. I think we should eliminate the Senate or modify the election method for the US Senate. I am also an advocate for ranked choice voting and a more European type system that enables minority parties to have a seat at the table.

You're relatively optimistic about Trump. I see a president remarkably similar in rhetoric and temperament to Putin, Turkey's Erdogan and the Phillipine's Duterte*. The people of those countries were hit by oppression, purges of government employees, mass incarcerations and executions of opponents and marginalized people faster than the people could respond. That is what those leaders promised, and they delivered. It is also what Trump promised. Once the killings and imprisonments start, most people are too afraid to protest. Germany was a democratic country before Hitler and their institutions did not stop him or protect the vulnerable people. Despite our bravado, I don't think that enough of today's Americans are prepared to make the sacrifices needed to protect unpopular marginalized people when the oppression, purges of government employees, mass incarcerations and executions of opponents and marginalized people begin.

The fundamental premise of your whole point of view is that the "wrong" people is a relatively homogenous group of hating, punishing oppressors who enjoy attacking innocents. Jeez Louise!

"People find beatings, theft and murder fun."

Wow! You have a very skewed sense of human nature. Dark and cynical. You believe it isn't just your opinion, that it is the objective truth.

Hate to burst your bubble but THAT is the fallacy here. It is not THE TRUTH.

Read it again. I never said that ALL Trump supporters are any particular way. I know that many of them are just ignorant, lack access to accurate information (USA Today and network TV news are useless) Trump, his team and many of his supporters, who will soon be in power, told us that they are bigots, mass killers and oppressors. I believe them. I heard the crowds roar with approval when Trump suggested beating a protester at a rally, that we should carpet bomb the middle east*1 or that Muslims should face discrimination.

Yes, most people enjoy violence. That is why we watch football and violent movies and TV. That is why a large crowd just stands around to watch and cheer (and many will join in) when someone has a fight in the streets. That is why abuses against innocents can be found whenever there is a war. Drastically under-reported is the extent to which soldiers, including the USA's troops, commit rape during war. Hell, violent abuse is found whenever one group has a disproportionate amount of power.

By the way, research has shown that cynics and pessimists perceive reality more accurately than optimists. Look it up.

I have a dark view of people because I read history. I think we have seen by now that a charismatic leader with the right campaign can get most people to commit or passively consent to major atrocities. Killing Fields of Cambodia, Rwanda, police beatings and murders of minorities throughout the world, communist oppression and murder of Jews, and non-communists, slavery, witch burnings. Watch the TV show I mentioned or read the excellent book "Savage Continent: Europe in the Aftermath of World War II by Keith Lowe

I also am aware of events that are barely reported in the mainstream commercial media such as the killings of drug users in the Philippines and arrests of reporters and government workers in Turkey. Those are our "democratic allies."

Another reason for my views: I have attended many street protests. Whenever the protest is sufficiently large for anonymity, a contingent of violent young males shows up and starts breaking things and attacking the police, discrediting a protest designed to be non-violent. Some of them may be undercover cops, agents or other infiltrators, but many of them support the cause and just love destruction and violence too much to resist having some fun, despite knowing that their acts contradict the goals of the protest. Some do it because they think violence is the only way to get attention from the mainstream, which is generally true. (I just think we need to be more selective about the type of attention we get and whether it benefits the cause)

People can be divided into three categories:

1. People eagerly looking to commit violence and oppression (15% is my guess, mostly young men)

2. People who can be convinced to commit violence and oppression (75%)

3. People who will not commit violence and oppression (10%)

There is a common narrative that only ignorant, uncivilized, desperate people engage in mass violence. That is a lie. Germany was a democratic country, with a tolerant culture and an educated populace that was relatively prosperous. It took but a few years to change all of that. There is absolutely no reason to think it can't happen here.

There is good news, There is actually less violence and oppression in the world now than ever before. That is because technology has created more stable lives for many people (ie. less starvation) and due to the hard work of people who work hard for peace, equality and justice. The trend in general has been towards less violence and less bigotry. But every action has a reaction, which is why after 8 years of relative peace and prosperity 49% of the voters chose a leader pledging disruption, oppression, violence and more favoritism for the wealthy.

Via the electoral college, gerrymandering, voter suppression schemes, privileges for the two parties, and other measures our election is rigged. The proof is that candidates win without getting a majority of the vote. There is nothing wrong with turning the rigged system against itself to achieve genuine democracy (the candidate with the most votes wins), not the sham democracy of the electoral college. Its OK to bite the hand that feeds you shit.

*1 "carpet bombing" means mass murder of everyone in a region

*2 "...after WW2 there was an atmosphere of chaos and violence almost everywhere and people decided to take the law into their hands. It was also the time to settle old scores. Yogoslav partisans decided to cut off the noses of their opponents, while Sudeten Germans were butchered in Czechoslovakia. Dutch and Belgian collaborators were summarily executed and their houses were set on fire, while in Italy the bodies of Fascists were displayed in the streets where they could be spat at by passers-by. In Hungary, members of the far-right Arrow Cross were forced to exume mass Jewish graves in very hot weather while local people threw sticks and stones at them. In France, clandestine prisons were set up where suspected collaborators were subjected to multiple forms of sadism including mutilation, rape, enforced prostitution and every type of torture imaginable...Excerpt from Amazon Customer review of the book Savage Continent by Keith Lowe

Okay I completely get how you see things. And there have been atrocities that, and I am in total agreement on this, should never be allowed to happen here or anywhere in the world.

The thing is, you cannot predict the future. You talk as if you are sure of everything you say (backed by oodles of evidence) and THAT WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY BE HOW THIS IS GOING TO PLAY OUT!!!! Well did you KNOW last Monday that Trump would win?

Setting prognostication aside for the moment, clearly this is what you are (deathly) afraid will happen - that's fair to say, right? You might be surprised that I, too, am afraid of ALL of that. Really, after THAT campaign, it sure looks like how things could be headed.

The difference between you and me on this is that I am recognizing that the future is yet to be determined. NOBODY KNOWS what Trump will/won't do. Nobody knows how issues will work through the congressional / legislative / judicial structure of our government. Sorry - even you do not know.

Given there is no friggin way to KNOW how anything will go - really - well then, I can step back and actually consider how I want to face my fears, how I want to listen to exactly what is being said by whom, and how I am going to determine "what does all this mean??"

I am not being optimistic! I am being present to all my thoughts and fears, letting them just be, and then choosing how I am going to face what is happening in my world. How is that not just positive thinking?

Switching topics: when the doctor first told me I had cancer, imagine the thoughts and fears that ran through me. Imagine what I was imagining for my future. Not hard to imagine, right?

Even when I later met with my surgeon and he described I was probably going to be an easy operation and the cancer won't come back, the worry "yeah but what if..." never left me alone.

If I simply let myself play out what I was worried could happen (and sometimes expected the worst WOULD become reality), then each day would have been scared, stress filled and draining. Understandable right? The insanity of it, though, is that it is all premised on something that hasn't even happened, and might NEVER happen.

But if I had a choice in the matter, why would I want that?? I wouldn't! I didn't!

I chose to listen to exactly what my doctors were saying, take every action I could to position my health and my home situation for the best possible outcome, and simply not buy into my unavoidable fears when they came up. It was a amazingly smooth experience and my surgery and rapid recovery has blown any idea of how well it could go.

With the election results, it is basically the same process for me. In a nutshell, I am not interested in being mega-stressed and hostile to those who supported Trump. I am committed to getting past the (mutual) hostility! I am committed to being a contribution to de-escalating the fight so we can actually make things work well between all people. And at this time, it's kind of like having people ON BOTH SIDES lay down their arms", give up the hostile rhetoric, and start listening to each other.

I have a very different point of view about the nature of humanity, and if I cared to bother, I could just as much evidence as you did to back up my view. (You know, of course, that if you have a point of view about anything you can always find evidence to support it.). I am clear that what a human being wants is to make a difference in having a world that works for people. Where it gets forgotten is when people get positional and righteous.

And I am not just giving lip service. I am having very difficult conversations with people who voted for Trump and disgusted with protestors, etc. I am also talking with many people like you who feel a gross injustice has happened and it needs to be fought.

And I am CLEAR AS A BELL that I WILL be actively opposing anything resembling the atrocities that might play out. I am even imagining getting arrested from standing up for human rights. I think I will buy Bernie's book to explore ways for getting involved. This is all completely out of character for me! I don't even spend any time reading!

Enough for now.

By the way, your 3 way split of people who commit violence sure looks skewed by looking at books, movies, and the like - all interpretations of what happened, with a certain point to make.

I actually have had a great deal of first hand experience of hearing thousands of individual people wrestling with how to deal with life and all they see as messed up.

My three way split would be more like 1% / 9% / 90%, and that would be an average that includes all the most extreme examples that you pointed to. If people got past their sense of desperation or "need for revenge" or punishment, if they "laid down their arms" and started listening to each other, the split would be <2% total for the first two categories and 98% for people who simply won't get sucked into violence.

There is some work to do to get to that point, of course.

My main point, is that the stakes are too high to accept the results of our flawed semi-democracy until after the electoral college votes.

The electoral college was designed to allow the electors to change their votes, otherwise there is no point to it. Hilary got the majority vote, so I see absolutely no reason not to campaign for a change by the electors and millions of reasons to do so. There will be plenty of time to make some peace with our opponents later. But like they did to Obama, we need to fight every bad move by Trump and Republicans with everything we have. No appeasement, no partisanship, and no compromise when their plans are harmful. They are winning because they fight dirty and don't compromise. We need to keep as much of our semi-democracy as possible, but fight as dirty as necessary without losing our scruples. There is too much at stake to make nice with the people who only want to harm us.

And my main point is I am not starting from it being “the truth” that they are “people who only want to harm us.”

I am recognizing:

· it is possible that Trump’s rhetoric during the campaign was as nasty as it was out of a strategy for getting elected – and it worked!

· it is possible that his actions to come as president will not necessarily be a close match to his “threats” during the campaign.

· It is possible that he will actually pursue some overhauls of the Federal gov’t that will be revolutionary and in a way many people, including Bernie supporters, will find really good ideas

· I am willing to initially suspend any expectations/prognostications that he intends bad things for people as a whole, that the “alt-right will be in power”, etc.

· The only thing that will really be a basis for assessing what they are trying to do is from what they say / put into legislation / actions they take … from here on

· And as what they say and do unfolds, I will be rigorous in catching when I am adding my own interpretations and treating it as “the truth”

Already I have heard some curious things such as:

· Trump on 60 Minutes saying his focus now will be on addressing infrastructure, securing the border (includes starting with deporting illegal immigrants with criminal records), lowering taxes, and looking to end how politics is so dominated by lobbyists and special interests … overall that sounds pretty good

· Trump said he wasn’t going to go after HRC, at least it is not a priority now … so maybe he is switching away from a punitive demeanor and strategy. If so, great! Let’s hear more.

· Trump also said he will retain the right to use rough rhetoric as necessary some times … but he didn’t say about what. Maybe it will come into play with international situations more than domestic. We’ll see. But if he messes with oppressors in the world as effectively as he messed with his opponents in the campaign, this could be very uncomfortable but also potentially unprecedented and good.

· Comments and actions that clearly show Trump is not just in bed with the establishment Republicans … I like that

· Newt Gingrich saying how he wants to be used by Trump is in overhauling the structure of the Federal gov’t … hmmm that could get interesting, what will he propose?

· The whole thing with his children getting security clearances, the idea that he might reside part-time in NYC, and the apparent likelihood he cannot (and maybe does not have to) extricate himself from his business world … I cannot yet fathom what all of that implies other than this will be an unprecedented kind of president (and my first thoughts are all very negative and fearful) … and maybe that will be a great thing, who knows?

· The day after the election I heard some news reporter describe this as the end of the global context that was determined by WWII. That caught my ear – what could that be about, in how many aspects could that apply??

So I will be alert, engaged and looking for ways to be supporting whatever I believe is worthwhile, and mostly I am looking at how we the people relate to each other as it is not up to the politicians to cure everything.

I don't share your optimism. Look at the people Trump is appointing to his staff and cabinet. I also expect that he will do many of his most destructive moves covertly while the public is being distracted by his latest "outrageous" publicity stunt.

Trumpism has already has a negative impact on our society. See the article "Almost half of Americans see torture as acceptable, Red Cross survey finds" in the Guardian. It reports that "The poll, conducted by the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), found that 46% of Americans believe it acceptable to torture enemy combatants, with just 30% opposed to the practice and another 24% unsure or unwilling to answer. Only Nigeria and Israel record higher rates of support for torturing captured enemy fighters, with 70% and 50% endorsements, respectively.

By contrast, in 1999 – the last time the ICRC conducted its “People on War” poll – 65% of Americans said the US could not torture captured enemy fighters, and 57% favored permitting an independent monitor to observe detention conditions.

The survey found a coarsening of attitudes towards obligations to civilians in wartime among people in the US, UK, Russia, China and France – the permanent members of the United Nations security council, which possess disproportionate power to set the global governance agenda.

As Donald Trump, who has endorsed torture enthusiastically, prepares to take the White House, some 33% of Americans consider torture “a part of war”, with another 13% unsure or unwilling to answer.

The poll found that 54% of Americans consider torture “wrong”, a lower proportion than in any other population save for those of Israel and Palestine. Only 44% of Israelis and only 35% of Palestinians considered torture to be wrong... “There is a higher degree of acceptance amongst people living in the [Permanent Five Security Council] countries and Switzerland that the death of civilians in conflict zones is an inevitable part of war,” found the ICRC, which polled 17,000 people in 16 countries.

...Only 59% oppose attacking a target with the knowledge that civilians will be killed, down from 68% in 1999, the ICRC found. While the 2016 study did not break the finding down by country, in 1999, its predecessor poll found that 52% of Americans believed the US ought only attack enemy combatants, while 42% believed the US should leave civilians alone “as much as possible”.."

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